Carolynn L. Johnson has served as the CEO of DiversityInc for nearly two decades.
Anti-diversity backlash has reached a precipice. There is growing skepticism regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) efforts and there have been attacks to programs designed to advance diversity. The demands for more conversations that center harmed and marginalized populations have been stifled, as society becomes more polarized. Carolynn L. Johnson has seen this unfold in her nearly two decades of work with DiversityInc, and now as the CEO of DiversityInc. Over the years, DiversityInc has become the premiere source for DEI-related information and best practices, and they’ve developed systems for benchmarking DEI. Johnson sat down for an interview to discuss the current state of DEI and how to combat anti-diversity propaganda.
Janice Gassam Asare: Carolynn, can you just share a little bit more about yourself and the work that you're doing right now at DiversityInc?
Carolynn L. Johnson: Sure, no problem. My name is Carolynn Johnson. I am the CEO of DiversityInc. In February of 2023, it'll be 20 years that I have been with DiversityInc, doing this work. And so, when you think about it, with a majority of new entrants to the workforce being non-white and with women earning more bachelor's, master's, and PhDs, DiversityInc's vision is to be the preeminent data-driven source of knowledge and guidance on how to manage and navigate the 21st century workplace and workforce. And you'll notice that while the company name is DiversityInc, I didn't say anything about diversity in there because the work that we do is centered around fairness. A lot of people think that it means excluding certain people in order to get to fairness for others, but it really means including everyone so that fairness is experienced across the board, whether it be at work, in the classroom, or in your community. We strive to make sure that fairness is the experience everyone has.
Asare: I love that. That's actually a great segue into my next question. Do you think that there's such a thing as focusing ‘too much’ on racism? I do a lot of work with companies, and this is something that I sometimes hear.
Johnson: No, I don't believe that you can focus on it too much because...until we're certain that racism is no longer an issue, I don't believe that you can ever focus too much because it is embedded in so much. Institutional and structural racism are very real, and it shows up in the education system, it shows up in our workplaces, it shows up in government. Until your auditor tells you that your audit is clean...they're going to keep working through whatever your issues are. This, as a business challenge, is no different. And until we get it right, I don't believe that there are too many mentions of the topic.
Asare: In your experiences, what are some of the claims that are made about corporate diversity efforts that are just flat-out inaccurate?
Johnson: Some of the things that we hear people talk about...and mind you, I'm hearing the same things that others are. I listen to news that I love and then I listen to news to get out of echo chambers, which everyone should do. But some of the things that we hear is that diversity, equity, inclusion, corporate social responsibility, there's a lot of different names for it, but that it only focuses on helping Black people, that it only focuses on helping Latinos, that it doesn't care about everybody, and that it is meant to try to take from others to give to people who don't deserve. That's just high level what we hear when people are attacking the work around diversity, equity, and inclusion, which, as I said, is really about workplace fairness.
"Some of the things that we hear is that diversity, equity, inclusion, corporate social ... [+]
Asare: What do you think that the readers could do to combat this? There's just so much that's been said and that's been repeated, and I believe in the mantra that if you repeat a lie long enough, people start to believe it. There are a lot of misconceptions about what diversity, equity, and inclusion actually is. And I think that a lot of the public may be starting to believe some of these inaccuracies. What do you think the readers can do to make sure that the correct information is being put out and information that is accurate?
Johnson: I'll give you a perfect example. Recently, an anchor on a major news network, for 10 minutes straight, Janice, went on and on degrading diversity, equity, and inclusion as a practice, and based on what I know about the show, to millions of viewers, and specifically saying things like, ‘Diversity, equity, and inclusion has bled into the corporate environments and even medicine.’ The reality of it is, it has and it should. If you think about DiversityInc's Top Hospitals and Health Systems, you have organizations like Northwell Health, who is number one on that list. Everything that that organization and organizations like it does is based on measurement and understanding of what culturally-competent care [is], which means better health outcomes for people who are traditionally not cared for.
Of course, it has bled into medicine...it should. But when you say things like that, you are responsible for what comes out of your mouth and how you influence millions of people, what is the listener or the reader responsible for doing? Well, first, for keeping somebody that they trust honest with what they say. It's not enough to just listen to somebody and say, ‘Oh, well, that's just their opinion.’ Are they right? So, first things first, you have to research what folks are saying and make sure that you understand if it's right or wrong. If they're wrong, message them. You spend so much time with certain personalities, whether you're reading a column, or listening to a show, or watching a show. Reach out to them and make sure that they understand how what they said was received. Maybe there's a correction that they mean to issue, they need to issue, or not. But don't just take it. Make sure that you hold people accountable that you are trusting to bring you the news and facts that go along with it.
Asare: Absolutely. I think you hit on so many important points, but I think that they recognize that those types of things drive ratings. So, it's like just playing into their viewer base. I appreciate all of those sentiments, and I think all of that is really important, especially keeping our news sources honest.
Johnson: One more thing to think about, because when you say diversity, depending on who you're saying it to, that can mean so many different things. But if diversity, equity, and inclusion is a scam, if diversity, equity, inclusion has no place in business, no place in medicine, then what you're essentially saying is, the strides that we have made with women taking on roles that they're fully ready to take on, you're saying that that's a scam. For people who do not identify as white in this country, all of the advances that they have made, you're saying that's a scam. For people who are comfortable in their skin, who have come out and they're part of the LGBTQ+ community, you're saying their comfort and their psychological safety is a scam. For people who are older working Americans, you're saying that them being taken seriously in the workplace is a scam. If you're talking about people with disabilities, you're saying the fact that Covid taught us how important people with disabilities are to the workplace, and this country's overall success, if you're saying that it's a scam, you're saying that every one of those groups that I just mentioned don't deserve to be seen and treated fairly at work.
Last but certainly not least, if you think about active military and those who are veterans and have served this country proudly, for them to be reintroduced into the workforce after they have served us, and to make sure that we're looking at any issues or support they need, if you're saying that's a scam, are you really, really saying that, or are you just doing and saying these things for ratings? If you think about the fact that 61 million adults in the United States live with a disability, making sure they're okay is a scam? 26% or 1 in 4 of adults in the United States have some type of disability. Making sure they're okay is a scam? I think we have to hold people accountable when they say things that go against the very American way of being, which is to take care of people so that we can all win.
This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.
